Men Who Give You Their Number Instead of Taking Yours. ~ Group Post.

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The last week or so, I posted an article about reasons why men may choose to give you their number and not ask you for theirs.  In discussing this with friends there were mixed feelings as to why, but most of them seemed to think that this was more of a positive behavior than negative; I move to strike those opinions from record dammit!  Instead, I’ve brought in the heavy artillery; the big guns of the dating/relationships and otherwise Blogoshpere.  Yep, this is my first group post.  Today we’re featuring Lucky Lass, Mr. Jeffrey “Don’t Call Him Steve” Platts, the lovely Maruska Morena and, well, this guy.  We were also going to feature commentary by Simon MacCorkindale, of ‘Manimal’ fame, but due to his hectic schedule he had to pass on this post. Next time Simon.

Jeffrey Platts of JeffreyPlatts.com fame.

Every time a woman gives a guy her number it means either a) she likes him and wants him to call her; b) she doesn’t like him and simply doesn’t want him to feel rejected or feel bad herself; or c) she doesn’t like him and she gave him the number to Bubba’s Auto Repair.

If he gives her HIS number, it could be seen as one way of weeding out the women who aren’t really interested. If she does call, he could then presume that she has a high interest level in him. But the downside is that it SHIFTS THE ENERGY, where she is taking the lead and he is then passively responding to her. Not a great recipe for sexual attraction. And if he gives her his number, that could appear to the woman that he doesn’t care if she calls or not.

It’s best when the guy asks the woman for her number and he initiates the first call. It shows he has the balls to ask for what he wants. It also sets the tone for him taking the lead in the courtship. So I’d say one practice would be for guys to be more present during the initial interaction, so they can be more skilled at gauging the vibe. I know many times I’ve asked for a number , when in hindsight, the vibe really wasn’t there at all.

Also, ladies, have some compassion for guys. One of the scariest experiences for many guys is to approach an attractive woman. There is even a term for it: “approach anxiety.” So if you’re really not interested and can think of a reply that embodies authenticity, compassion AND appreciation, then give that a try! And if he’s an insistent douche-bag, then go ahead and do what you gotta do.

Jeffrey Platts is the heart and soul behind JeffreyPlatts.com, sharing perspectives on dating and relationships from an authentic and practical point of view, bringing in years of study in spiritual and personal growth.  When not in front of his Mac, you can find him practicing and teaching yoga or DJing funky old school jams.

http://lucklass.wordpress.com
The lovely Lucky Lass of http://lucklass.wordpress.com

Don’t Give Us Your Number!!

Etiquette is not dead I tell you. Men know to walk on the outside of their women, closer to dangerous gutters and shin-hitting strollers. Women know to protect their man from ungracious comments their girlfriends make, etc. etc. There is one thing though that has alarmingly become more popular and I can’t say that I like it. The phone number reversal. Since when have men thought it proper to give us their number instead of asking for ours? This is a steamy pile of crap!

Being single is difficult for both sexes involved, it just is. The slow dance of flirting is a socially agreed upon exchange. We act like we don’t see you, you walk over awkwardly, or send a drink over to do your talking for you. We laugh at each other’s jokes (if they’re bad enough) and you ask us for our number. It’s a complicated jig and has taken us a long time to get in to position and do it right. Now men are throwing in some new step no gentlemanly instructor has taught them. It’s not a good move and I’ll give you 3 good reasons why:

1–It tells us you have no guts. We like guts–thick, long, windy ones. The days of fearlessly fighting dragons don’t exist anymore. Asking for our number is the next closest thing, so do it, and do it boldly, slayer.

2–It tells us you’re cheap. Maybe you get charged for calls after 7 p.m. and that’s why you want us to call you. Get a new job, man.

3–It tells us you have low self-esteem. This will kill any chance you thought you had with us. If you don’t believe you can get in to our pants, we will confirm that belief.

Gutless, cheap, loser. These are not the adjectives of a casanova. Generally speaking, we look to men to take the lead. (I will deny this later, so don’t quote me). If you don’t take this initiative, we are out on the dance floor under a spot light with no partner.

So if you want some, ask for our number, it’s the first good move you can make.

Lucky Lass writes for the blog lucklass.wordpress.com. Growing up in a world of all women guardians, my experience with men relied heavily upon the neighbor’s stern dad, the family’s appeasing minister and my he-cat, Chubbs.  With these three, the characteristics of a “good man” remained as far away as the East is from the West.  Never one to back down from a challenge however, I went ahead and lived my life, painted on various men as if they were nail polish…some looked great on me, most clashed awfully.  How to know who was worth me?  Who I was worth?  That remains to be seen.  All I do know, is I’m one lucky lady to have made it this far with all my essentials intact, ego and pen included.


Maruska Morena, Dating 2.0
Ms. Maruska Morena, of Dating 2.0. Always insightful and always hilarious. Love her!

When He Gives You His Number.. Instead of Asking For Yours?

There are many reasons a guy gives out his number, but the main reason is that he wants to hear from you.

That said, he may not be that into you. He may give you his number so he can measure if you’re really interested.. aka you’ll call if you are.. so he can have a more “sure thing”. A remotely attractive girl is better than being alone.

Or.. he may be chicken or unsure of himself. He might think you’re out of his league, or not that into him or you’re in a group of friends and he’s intimidated to make that bold of a move.

In any case, he probably won’t be an alpha male, and will be happiest letting you take the lead.

There are exceptions to this.. where a guy will give his number to the friend of the girl he really wants to date and figures he’ll have a better chance of getting the apple of his eye if he befriends her friend. But I think this is rare.

Maruska Morena runs the popular dating blog, DatingTakeTwo.com.  Dating again. I never was truely the most successful dater before, and it seems the “time off” has done little to help that. I wanted to make a space to voice my adventures, my foibles, my thoughts, and the ups and downs of dating (again). Hopefully you’ll enjoy it. Laugh with me, cry with me, and even at times run for cover with me.


My take on this whole thing?  I’ve written about it before. I tend to think that the guy that does this errs on the side of being insecure more times than not.  Society expects us men to be aggressive and to get out there and take what we want.  Many women like  can-do attitude, or perhaps a ‘will-do-you’ attitude. Either way it lets a woman know that you’re assertive and willing to get out there and get what you want.  Trust me, that’s what women really want.  To be pursued.

In short, ladies, if this guy you’re into does this to you, either punch him in the unmentionables or go shopping for a dude with a spine.  That’s how I see it.

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yannibmbr

Alex is the founder, creative director and managing editor at the Urban Dater. Alex also runs his own boutique marketing agency in Orange County, Ca: DigiSavvy. Among his treasured pursuits are bike rides with his girlfriend (don't be perverted, now!), hiking, watching the Portland Trailblazers and the LA Angels. Follow Alex: Twitter | LinkedIn

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Comments

  1. says

    Jeffrey – Lazy lazy!! "weeding out the uninterested ones"? if my dating style is based on one tenet its this: The man must court. Also known more commonly as the "He's Just Not That Into You" approach. Women need to be chased, it assures us that we are wanted and needed. You are missing out on great women by giving out your number. You know who's gonna call? The crazies. The quality women will know to wait for a man who cares enough to do the pursuing.

  2. says

    Great post! All good reasons not to take a guy's number. Bottom line: if he really wants to call you, he will ask your number to make sure it happens… and he will call promptly. :)

  3. says

    Oh dearie, dearie me, Alex. I really AM beginning to feel like the lone defender of guys-giving-me-their-number. That's it! Time for an all-out blog war! And YOU thought I wasn't violent. Wait until you see my words. :)

    On another note, we'll call a truce for tonight, shall we? Looking forward to it!

  4. Alex says

    What about situations when 1) the girl asks for your number 2) you ask for her number but she asks you to give yours instead? My experience is that the second scenario never works.

  5. says

    Ah, rules, schmules. The bottom line is, some girls do not dig this and some girls are fine with it. Some may even like it as it gives them control. Guys will or will not give their number for a variety of reasons, all of which we can dissect until we're blue in the face.

    Ask for her number and you risk rejection. Give her your number and you risk rejection, just not to your face. Nothing in life is for sure, but sometimes you just gotta take a risk.

    Personally, I take it on a case by case basis, but I do prefer being asked for mine.

  6. says

    Really enjoyed the group post. From experience I know where Alex (above) is coming from. I've asked for a guys number instead because I knew I probably wouldn't call him. I enjoyed his company, would probably have gone out with him but didn't want him to feel rejected. Now looking back on it, I think I would've just passed. At the end of the day, I'd rather give mine.

    Here's another question that comes to mind – if we're taking/giving numbers because we fear rejection, how do we reject politely? Is there such a way.

  7. yannibmbr says

    You know, I'm not sure that polite and rejection go together. Then again, no one thought bacon and ice cream would make for good bed fellows either!

    If you're direct and kind then I think it's possible to accomplish letting someone down. We can only control how we say something; how someone else reacts to what we say is a whole other ball game.

    In short, Izzy, I think you can be polite and reject someone. But when you do, make sure to where your running heels so you can make a fast getaway!
    .-= yannibmbr´s last blog ..Time to Put on the Big Boy Pants =-.

  8. says

    This may have been a trend that has since passed, but the "excuse" that used to be given when a man offered his number was that he wanted the woman to feel she could block her number when she made that first phone call, thus offering her some type of (albeit false) sense of security. This scenario was in place when going from online communication to phone contact. But like I said, this was years ago, when the whole online dating thing was akin to "you might be agreeing to meet Ted Bundy" and you just don't know it yet.

    I am all in 38 flavors of the man stepping up to the plate and pursuing what he wants…after all, there is nothing really safe about the pursuit of love or lust.
    .-= girltrueheart´s last blog ..girltrueheart: UPS is looking for a few good drivers http://bit.ly/9ye23G =-.

    • dave says

      Ms. Girltrueheart – I understand that men are not worth much ( as in Ms. Bea saying that women NEED to be chased) , but men also risk an Aileen Wournos out there. But do not worry, women can ALWAYS claim that men should approach!

  9. says

    Ladies, if a man is really interested in you he will do any humanly (and inhumanly) possible to make you his own. He will call, email, text, telegraph, and send homing pigeons to contact you. If he’s giving you his number, he’s not interested enough to make the effort. If you do end up contacting, he might pursue you for booty call purposes because, after all, you’ve proven that you’re willing to chase him. Here’s more info on why guys who seem to like you, dump you.

  10. AIYA says

    I think we are reading into it too much when it is so early days you find out whether they are interested or not later on if you actually meet up. Getting a phone number is only a small part of success in the dating world and also there are plenty of people who are interested in people but are really crap at keeping in contact with others this happens all the time on Facebook for example there are loads of men i found attractive but i don’t always say i am or even bother to tell them.

  11. AIYA says

    Also if a man gives his phone number on a dating site isn’t he being the one at risk not the woman it even says on dating sites do not disclose your personal information to strangers but the men have chose to do so without caring they are exploiting themselves to the woman. He has put everything in her favour!!

  12. says

    It all depends on what the girl, and the guy, want, as well as the personal qualities and traits of each.

    But flirting and “courtship” is really a give and take. The man is leading overall from beginning to end, but there are moments where the woman should take the lead too. Most women don’t want to be totally passive “living dolls” in their relationships.

    The fact that men tend to take women’s numbers is totally down to cultural tradition, in and of itself it isn’t necessary to developing solid sexual attraction. Some said that women want the man to lead, and that’s true. But the man has already led by approaching the woman and leading the conversation. One could argue that giving his contact info is a form of leading too, because he has made himself vulnerable first. He will also lead, presumably, by asking her out later.

    • Alki says

      That tradition worked for centuries. Men are supposed to lead, but what we have in this century are a bunch of wussies. Face it. The women who call them are just as bad.
      He is a man, he should be vulnerable. What kind of lazy men is society producing. Too much progesterone??

      • says

        Well since the telephone has only existed for about 150 years, and personal phones (home phones, cell phones) have only been in use since about the 1950s, evidently this tradition has not “worked for centuries” since it has not even been in existence that long.

        There is absolutely nothing in human biology or DNA that relates to phone number customs. There is no “cell phone gene.”

        Yes, leadership is important for males. But leadership comes in many forms in different situations and contexts. It does not have to conform to the specific step-by-step template you personally prefer.

        • alki says

          Clearly I was being general- it is rather simplistic to think that ‘telephone’ in my statement meant just who calls who first, but rather the idea of pursuit and who should do it.

          Again your second paragraph is moot. This is not just about phones. It’s about the protocol and no matter how many ways you slice it, it is only sissies who think that a woman should pursue a man- be it by telephone, horse and buggy or otherwise.
          It is unnatural. Be a man, and let the women be women and quit being lazy. Grow some self esteem and do the work, you’ll be happy you did.
          I mean who the heck wants or values something they didn’t work for…no one but a lazy lazy man

          • says

            You’re just trying to start a fight.

            “…it is rather simplistic to think that ‘telephone’ in my statement meant just who calls who first”

            Dude, the article is about phones! That’s what this whole discussion is about. You’re backtracking and contradicting yourself.

            I already said that leadership and taking initiative is important for men. But it does NOT have to be in the specific template that YOU personally prefer.

            I agree that many men today are not willing or able to lead women. But to think that something as inconsequential as a phone number is the key to dominance and fulfilling one’s masculine role completely misses the point of what romance and seduction is all about.

            You can be a dominant, masculine man who doesn’t give a shit about phone numbers. Or you can be an indecisive, needy dude who gets tons of numbers. I think most women would prefer the former.

  13. Iain says

    This is the 21st century, Equal rights for all is the modern way – except in dating where women expect men to do all the hard work and effort just so they can sit on their asses and expect to be chased and worshipped… Putting down men who offer you their number and claiming that doing so reduces the value of a man is discriminatory and wrong. If women were to make more of a dating effort, then there probably wouldn’t be so many single ladies sitting at home by a mobile that never rings!

    • Nicole says

      you took the words directly out of my mouth. Ladies, stop waiting by your phone. If you want something, for God’s sake go after it. It’s not the 1950′s. I’ve had two guys give me their number and both admitted something along the lines of “I know you get asked for your number a lot. I don’t want to pressure you like every other guy but I would love to see you again. If YOU feel like you would like that as well, you contact me.” The first I dated for almost 2 years and the last one I’m currently dating and head over heals for. Both gave me a since of control and call it whatever you will, but I could not count the amount of guys who have asked me for my number (and have followed through w/ the call) that I was simply not drawn to. I can’t explain it and maybe it’s just me but these two guys intrigued the hell out of me. Maybe I’m just different. Some girls just like being chased and having these constant stream of guys ask for their numbers help validates their “hotness” in this society and boost their esteem. How many times does it not end well though and how many of these girls are still single!? If a guy gives you his number, don’t be so quick to brush him off is all I’m saying. In most cases (there are ALWAYS exceptions) this guy is not a loser, insecure, or gutless. Quite the opposite in fact. If a guy does this and you’re not interested at all, just don’t call. no harm done. If you are interested, even slightly, go after him!!!! Get yours girl, lol ;)

    • Alki says

      Oh how you miss the point. Women sitting on their butts…really; and you have a woman talking like that???
      I am just appalled that men refuse to be men. Sad really.
      There is nothing discriminatory about a woman being a woman and a man being a man. Why is it that men want to abandon their role in society. It make no sense, except they are lazy and lack self esteem.

      Women and men were created differently; men are by nature the aggressors- the hunters and gatherers. That is supposed to help to validate a man- being able to flex their proverbial muscles. Men have no idea how they sell themselves short by altering their roles. To really make a woman want you – really want you, you have to do things a certain way. It’s just the way it is.

      I am always so deeply disappointed when a guy proffers his number. Just happened to me twice this week- and I was surprised to find that other women were having the same problem.
      What happened is that my interest just waned. I want an assertive man, and them doing that just says to me that they are taking a huge chance – hoping that I will call. I won’t.
      How can a man leave his future in a woman’s hand. It’s incredible. One guy actually said confidently ‘We will talk tomorrow. Well right now is tomorrow, and here I am- not calling…Sadly not because I am punishing him, but rather I have just lost interest, and have no interest in calling this grown man when I am not even dying to talk to him. It was his job to make me want to talk to him. I hope that lesson is well learned.

      The writer made such a valid point, in that it changes the dynamics and shifts the role. That’s cringe worthy- no matter which century we are in.
      Sure you might say that is why we are still single, but I can assure you that the women who are not taking the numbers would rather be single than subject themselves to a sissy too cowardly to do what is within a their nature to do. Such a huge turn-off
      Lazy lazy lazy men and the women who allow it-tut tut tut

      • Andreea.Helena says

        I totally agree with your point of view! Men are men! They should take initiative. As my astrologist says “..If they don’t they are not really interested and at least you know you don’t have to spend your time thinking if something is going to come out of it! “

  14. Andy says

    What if a man asks for a girls number and she’s not interested in him though?

    Oh but he should just ‘man up’ if she rejects him to his face and loses face. Is that it? Will that be the given, canned response.

    You know what? Eff that. If I give a girl my number, I lose no face if she’s not interested. She’s not put on the spot and forced to make a decision either.

    My approach… I’d preface the number giving by getting to know her well enough before I ask if she’d be interested in going out THEN I’d say ‘you don’t have to give an answer now, zero pressure and it doesn’t have to be awkward between us in future if you’re not interested and just want to be friendly’ THEN hand her the number.

    But the note would either have my email on it or a message saying ‘text me if you like’. With this approach, I’ve not ‘pussied out’ by not declaring intentions to her face, but the note stalls things enough that it’s a clean means of exit for all parties involved if the girl isn’t interested.

    A girl can respond at her leisure in a measured, calculated way – If she’s interested. When people are expected to respond verbally, they’re a bit more flustered.

    This approach empowers everyone.

    • yannibmbr says

      I disagree completely in your approach. It shows that you lack conviction and aren’t willing to ‘take’ what you want by putting yourself out there.

      I used to think in this manner, too, but realized over time that women don’t like this approach. At least the women that I’ve been with, or have approached. Women “want” to be wanted, they do like being chased and they love a man who is decisive and takes charge. For those reasons, not too many women are going to go for this approach.

      • dave says

        Oh, how wonderfully convenient! Women want to b chased so thay THEY can
        feel the upper hand. They want the guy to “take charge(?)” so that HE can be
        rejected. You MUST be joking!

          • dave says

            Mr. ( or Ms?) yannibmbr- Thank you for the insult ( I guess that it was), but ALL I
            have tried to suggest is that there is a double standard about men being expected to approach (or get called lonely turds). If she approaches me ,than I know that she is interested.. Now find “anger” in those words so you can call me some more names, since I (GASP) disagreed with you.

    • Alki says

      I find it very interesting that the men here are deciding how a woman should feel about this role reversal.
      If you are a true man, then you will listen…no, not the the sound of your own voices but to the WOMEN who are speaking.
      Doesn’t that make sense. If I want to know how a guy thinks or why he does what he does, I listen to what men have to say. I now understand why men do what they do, but apparently men are not understanding that WOMEN don’t like it. Doesn’t that matter?
      Or will you come up with excuse after excuse to justify what is easier for you? I think you are choosing to do the latter
      The other thing that I think that men do not realize is that they are indeed wussing out in a woman’s eyes. Bottom line. No matter how women continue to take numbers, they are not happy about it and they eventually dump you. Not to mention you will never get the cream of the crop- sorry girls who use these numbers.

      Man the heck up, grow a pair and if you continue to give your number out, you are in fact acting like a girl. Shame on you, there are enough women out here

  15. and-I-said says

    I haven’t read all the posts, but has anyone mentioned online dating? Most men that contact me give me their phone number, they don’t ask for mine. I think it’s a given that women will NOT give their phone numbers out to men online as quickly or as often as men do. I know I prefer to communicate using email instead of over the phone initially. So what about online dating?

    • Alki says

      The biggest problem is with online dating.
      I really don’t understand why women are afraid to give out their phone numbers to someone they are interested in. What wrong with you people??? You are the ones helping to make men so paranoid.
      No one gives a crap about a phone number. If you like the guy- give it up. You all give up other things more readily than a damn phone number.

      I get asked for my number so rarely that it is a breath of fresh air when someone acts like a man that i do give it. I continue to be annoyed at the ones who claim to be trying to protect my privacy…i mean seriously who asked.
      This whole situation is driving me up the walls.
      I continue to tell them I am not that kind of girl.
      ASK FOR THE NUMBER men. It is JUST A NUMBER!!!!!!!
      Women like the poster above- stop being paranoid- people have way more info on face book, plus the white pages – isn’t it online for all to see. Shouldn’t you be more concerned about your address out there for all the see- yet you have managed to avoid being murdered by some psychopath. Sheesh

  16. says

    Haha I simply don’t give my number to anyone or take any guy’s number. I believe it’s the 21st century, even though we still haven’t mastered flying cars, we’ve got communication down to a rhythm. If I was that interesting that you’ll want to hear from me again, you’ll find me.

    It’s also a test of whether or not you were listening. Besides in this day of Facebook graph search, google and twitter. All you need is first and last name, or occupation and you’ve found the person. What do you need my number for?

  17. Rebecca says

    Different scenario but similar situation. I bought an item and the person that helped me was beyond nice and accommodating, at the end they gave me their business card to call/text them if I needed help which I did and we talked about the item I bought but it never got outside of that realm.

  18. Alki says

    I am so happy that people are talking about this. I feel i want to start a crusade, so men understand how women view them when they do this role reversal. I mean who wants a guy in panties???
    Education is key here. They had the info but somewhere along the way, the message got screwed up and it is frustrating me and clearly others.
    Every time I meet a guy I inevitably start wondering if he will be one of those… I hope this goes away as more and more people talk about it.
    I don’t want your number. I don’t want to go dutch, I don’t want to meet you anywhere. I will not make it easy for you. I expect you to open all doors, act like a gentleman, and court the heck out of me.
    Now please forward this to all the men who want to date me. Thanks!

      • ally says

        That’s right honey, it’s the privilege of being a woman.
        Men have simply become so lazy they are willing to relinquish their role as the aggressors.
        Aren’t you proud to be a man

        • John says

          You can have any attitude you want Ally, but the fact is women aren’t worth the effort. More and more men are discovering this to be true. I’m going to do what I want to do; that’s the privilege of being a man.

    • Maximus says

      Alki, What makes you so special? Are you Rich? Highly Intelligent? Have connections? Do you have the best vagina in the nation? It’s this sort of false entitlement that is making guys give their numbers out. At the end of the day, the man asks for the number, drives you to the dates, pays for dates, puts up with your PMS & craziness, Apologizes even when he’s right,buys the wedding ring, proposes, and in the divorce the Woman gets half !!!!!! What’s this privilledge of being a man, being railroaded and rejected ?

      And what does the woman do? Have sex with us? Every woman has a vagina and every woman loves sex- so I ask you again

      What makes you so special ALKI? I’m sure if I forwarded that to all guys that want to date you, unless you’re really hot, you won’t be getting ANY responses.

      • Tron says

        Thanks Maximus!

        I mean.. can you imagine getting with a woman like her? Would be miserable from the start. For what in return?

        “I don’t want your number. I don’t want to go dutch, I don’t want to meet you anywhere. I will not make it easy for you. I expect you to open all doors, act like a gentleman, and court the heck out of me.”

        Is she joking?

  19. Tron says

    This article and the writers (for one of the first times I have seen) are dead wrong. No one thinks anymore..

    Lets look at those two scenarios, shall we.

    __________________________________________________________
    Men ask for Womens number scenario:

    1: You could give a fake number (often) instead of just saying no, wasting his time.
    2: Say no
    3: Just give your number to be “nice” thereby “wasting his time” further.
    4: Give your number cause your interested in a date.

    What that equates to is a 1/4 (25%) chance (at best) for a man to make something actually happen.

    From the Womans standpoint:

    1: He could never stop calling and asking (Num 3 above)
    2: He could never call, being out with the guys and have a number gathering contest. (yes men do that).
    3: He calls and you go on a date.

    So by giving out your number, women have a 1/3 (33%) chance a date will actually happen.

    Lets review: Men asking for a Womens numbers equates to an average of 29% (25% + 33% / 2) a date will ever happen.

    ___________________________________________________________
    Men give their number to women scenario:

    1: You call cause your interested.
    2: You don’t.

    Men have just increased their chances of making a date happen to 50%.

    From the Womans standpoint:

    1: Your going on a date, cause you already know he is interested.

    Women have just increased their chances of a date to 100%

    Lets review: Men giving a Women his number equates to an average of 75% (50% + 100% / 2) a date will ever happen.

    So.. men giving their number out is not a signification of them being weak or not a leader… it is the EXACT opposite.

    They ARE LEADING you two towards date in a more efficient manner. You can find out if he is anything else on the date…because that’s WHAT THE DATE IS FOR!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not the exchange of contact information.. especially these days…..really?

    In other words, ladies… get over yourselves.

  20. Sofia says

    My boss resigned and right before he left he gave me his personal number and personal email address I was confused, he said so that I could use him as a reference

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